Habanero

I was inspired with an idea, I think Brian Wong posted here same time ago.
So I will try to explain (in my limited English) what the idea is about.

It would be called "GPL ladder".

Every time you race (a GPL ladder race) with at least N human opponents (the number N has to be determined, my suggestion is about 5), you gain or loose points in your RANKING.

Each driver has his own rating which would be calculated with an algorithm like in chess. Those who are familiar with chess, know what I am talking about, but here is a brief explanation:

Depending on the rank of your opponents you gain/loose more/less points.
The higher the rank of your opponent is, the more points you gain for a win, and the more you loose if you loose the game. Because we will have more opponents than in chess, the score would be calculated between you and each opponent.
E.g. if we have a race with 10 drivers, the driver who finished first would get 9 wins and probably a lot of points (depending on the ranks of the 9 drivers), and the one who finished 6th, has 5 defeats and 4 wins - and would got points according to this.

(Here is an system which could be used http://www.chess-express.com/explain.htm
and the most widely used ELO:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system#Elo's_rating_system_model )

All I need to make such system functional are the race results. I thought, after the race the results would be uploaded to some server, where I would download them, and process them with an program I would write, calculate all the points and post the results.

This is just the basic idea, which we could all together define more precisely, if there is enough interes.
There is a number of questions open, like what with the accidents, which tracks, cars, race length etc.
About the car, my sugesstion would be we "force" the drivers (to some degree) to drive all the cars:

We would have two limitations:
a) The max. % each car can be used (lets say 30 %)
b) The least % each car must be used (lets say 5 %)

E.g. if you have 100 races, you could drive 30 x Lotus, 25 x Eagle, 20 x Ferrari, 10 x Braby , 5xHonda, 5xCopper, 5xBRM

That way you would drive your favourite cars most, but have to drive the less popular cars also.

Something similar would be implemented with tracks (so you would be "forced" to drive the track similar number of times).


That way the usual pick-up VROC races could be turned into "Ladder races", and it would be of your interess to finish the race, and to finish it at the best position.
I think that could bring some new "live" to the pick-up races.

So, what do you think about it ?

Cheers,
Damir.

YelloGreen67

Damir,

with all respect, what should this serve for?

Your idea sounds a bit like the online points that you have to gather on the SIERRA servers in Nascar 2003, the idea of which I personally absolutely hate.

Because even if you retire due to another wrecker, your "online rank" keeps low.

Or do you mean something different?


Cheers,
YG

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Wolf-HR

Intersting idea, Damir, but (being neither an expert nor a online racer) I don't see it working unless it involved some sort of 'licensing'. Only races with certain number of 'registered' drivers would have to count for scoring.

What would happen if non-ranked drivers took part in races that were used for scores? One would then have to use their GPL rank (the next best thing for the purpose) to calculate points gain/loss...

Another thing is for example leagues. You'd have few groups of drivers racing each other and scoring the same points regardless of the strength of the league. So one would have to 'prescribe' certain number of 'inter-league' races that one must take part in, in order to determine relative strength of leagues and their participants...

__________________
[Aside.] Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.

9'01.2" - 9'01.5" - 9'01.4" - 9'01.0" = ticket to immortality (four consecutive laps in '61 German GP by eventual winner)

Wolf-HR

Yello, I think it's meant as ATP ranking or FIFA World Ranking, to determine strength in competitions. GPL Rank is good for hotlappers (or luke-warm lappers, in my case) but races are another thing. This rank would reflect how good one does against human opponents in races, but is not as 'inflexible' as league championships- one doesn't have to race the same people all the time and at fixed times (servers could host such races all the time, so one could take part at his own leisure).

Re. DNFs, mechanical DNFs could bring no points but take away none as well, but collisions/accidents could take away certain number of points...

__________________
[Aside.] Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.

9'01.2" - 9'01.5" - 9'01.4" - 9'01.0" = ticket to immortality (four consecutive laps in '61 German GP by eventual winner)

zenracer

I really like the idea and think it would create some incentive. VROC seems very dormant recently.

Habanero

Roland the answer "What should this serve for ?" is good answered by WOLF-HR.

If a race counts towards the ladder, than it has some "meaning" because you gain/loose RANKING points. That should stop people from quitting races and of course, make it more interesting.

Wrecking could be a problem, but if there is an wrecker in the race, the race would not count.

WOLF-HR, about "non-registered" drivers joining such a race, there is no problem at all.

The chess-rating system has a solution for this and the formula for calculating the score is different if a "non-registered" player plays against a "registered".
In one system, before you have 5 matches, you rank is provisional, and after that your rank is "real".

At the start, drivers can get some provisional rank depending on GPL rank.

And for the league races, I don't see any problem. They could count towards "Ladder", but they don't have to.

I hope there will be enough interes in this ( I don't see why would you join a pick-up race rather than a "Ladder" race), because I started to write the program/database for it.

Hope we race soon in the "Ladder" (after all the rules are determined).

Cheers,
Damir.

amp

For me the opportunity to race when I have the time and interest, and have that race count as part of something meaningfull and structured would be very much welcomed.

No doubt getting the whole system up and running won't be easy, but I hope it eventually surfaces since I feel it would improve the quality of racing in VROC (=less discos and crashing). Of course that would require there's enough general interest, otherwise people will just disco and crash as before whether a ladder system exists or not.

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YelloGreen67

Yes of course, your idea sounds interesting Damir.

The only risk that I see is that when such a race ranking exists, it could (and most probably would) be implemented a system that determins from what rank on you are allowed to take part in certain "open" races.

Dunno if you ever played Nascar 2002 or 2003 online, but if you want to take part in an "open" Sierra server race, you only can join when you have a certain LPI and track rank ... this kinda sucks IMO.

You hear many people say that they just join races in order to get their ranks high for "more important" races or servers rather than just joining a race for fun ... this would (and in Nascar already is) against any "open races spirit" IMHO.

But on the other hand, if your ladder system doesn't lead to such restrictions, but exists only for the fun of it (like GPL Rank) I find your idea good.


Cheers,
YG

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Shall I stay on the throttle or on the track?

Habanero

There will be no restrictions who can join a race.

For now it looks like there is not much interest, but I work on the program/database anyway...


My idea is that every VROC race could take part in the ladder, only someone has to post/upload the results so I can process them.

When people will see their names in the "Ladder", I am sure they will take VROC races more seriously.

I am sure it will be fun


Cheers,
Damir.

carsten.meurer

that could make vroc more fun!

- because it gets more serious...

you would get something like a reward for a good drive! thats cool!

things to watch!

- one -60 driver could create a new high rank to score more points when he starts fresh as a +40

- blowing my engine as an excuse to quit a race i goofed or damaged the car in another sort that would have punished my position needs to be impossible

- certainly others


i would register!

Wolf-HR

Carsten, I don't think RaceRank should be, in principle, used in conjuction with GPL Rank- everybody starts out with 0 points and works his way up through online racing, and the ranking is done according to points (and perhaps even points per race as an additional criterion).

As for blowing engines up &c, I don't see any practical way to enforce/check it up, so it would be up to each racer to uphold 'code of honour'.

Anyways, I support the idea, but don't 'do VROC' (don't think I will in near future, unless I join some F3 league), so I'm just giving 'moral support' to the project...

__________________
[Aside.] Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.

9'01.2" - 9'01.5" - 9'01.4" - 9'01.0" = ticket to immortality (four consecutive laps in '61 German GP by eventual winner)

carsten.meurer

how would - starting with a clear rank- the results of the first ( 5!? ) races be treated if there is a system that rates beating a higher ranked opponent ?

if for your first five races you just get a base rank, or only points for position, than that would be fine. great if gpl rank is no value in there.

if the races are on a level that allows shift/R, i would not allow any technical failures to not count a race. you been punted off or blew the motor - fine - shift/R and go on.

leaves discos and wreckers as the only tread, or do i miss something?

Habanero

Sorry for not answering faster, but I am not at my comp 2 more days.

If you are interested hat formula will be used, please check this site:

http://www.chess-express.com/explain.htm

When I get home to my comp, I will post an example for a race.

New drivers (we all are at the start) will start with a RATING of 1000.

After 5 races you will have your real, not proviosional rating.

Info that I will use is the export file of the race results.
So discos, crashes will be treated as GPL treats them...

If there will be a wrecker at a race, just don't send that race report to me.

Cheers,
Damir.

carsten.meurer

damir,

hats off! your a very brave man!

do i get it right that everyone registered can send any vroc race he or she took part in!?

that will leave you with a flood of mails and data of a frightening amount once it took off! -. and it will!

Wolf-HR

Carsten, I think racdes would need to be 'sanctioned'- for example, hosts could host races where registerd user could race among themselves and few unregisterd 'rookies', or any race where, say, more than 80% entries were registered users...

I do, however, see some problem with automated data processing (identification of drivers), which could be solved by requiring that each member races under his rank username.

__________________
[Aside.] Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.

9'01.2" - 9'01.5" - 9'01.4" - 9'01.0" = ticket to immortality (four consecutive laps in '61 German GP by eventual winner)

Habanero

Carsten, if I will receive as many mails as I see interes here, I surely will not be flooded

But, that would be how it works in the begining until I learn how to make an upload program.
Than all the race exports (reports) would be uploaded to one directory where the program would import and process them.

There will be no registration.

Everyone can send any race report, and it will take part in the "Ladder".

For the begining I will make no restrictions in cars or tracks, but if there will be more interest in this, that could be built later in.

So all you have to do is join a VROC race (and you can worn the drivers that you will send the race to the "Ladder" - so they behave more rational ), and after the race send the race export file.
If two or more people send the same file, no problem, I will check the time, track and race length - that should be enough for uniqness.

I will try to build a web page with lots of info:

best rating, worst rating for all drivers, number of races, tracks, race type (long, short etc.), positions in races, etc.

When once people be aware that such a page exists, I think they will take the VROC-Ladder races more serious

About the idnetifications of drivers, of course you have to race under the same name, because I will just extract the name from the race report file.

Will it be possible to cheat ?

Sure.

Is it possible to cheat in GPL rank ? Yes.

But that subject is discussed many times.

You cheat yourself.

Cheers,
Damir.

Habanero

OK, here is na example of calculating points after a race with 5 drivers:

Driver ratings before the race

Player1 - 2800
Player2 - 2750
Player3 - 2500
Player4 - 1200
Player5 - 1000 (new driver, rating is provisional)

The race ended in following order:


1. Player2
2. Player1
3. Player5
4. Player4
5. Player3

Calculating for Player1

P1:P2=-23
P1.P3=9
P1:P4=2
P1:P5=2

P1=-10

So, Player1 has lost 10 points, mostly because Player2 finished before him and he won over players with low rating

Calculating for Player2

P2:P1=23
P2:P3=11
P2:P4=2
P2:P5=2

P2=38

Player2 is first, has even beaten a better rated player (Player1), so overall his rating has raised for 38 points

Calculating for Player3

P3:P1=-9
P3:P2=-11
P3:P4=-41
P3:P5=-21

P3=-62

Player3 was last, beaten by a new player (Player5) where he lost 21 point, and beaten by a very low rated player (Player4) where he lost 41 point.
Also beaten by two good driver for which he lost only 9 and 11 points.


Calculating for Player4

P4:P1=-2
P4:P2=-2
P4:P3=41
P4:P5=-8
P4=29

Player4 is low rated (1200) but managed to beat a much higher rated player (Player3 - 2500) for which he got 41 point (which is max. points a player can gain/loose for rated players).
He lost against very high rated players for which he lost only 2 points, and for loosing against an provisional rated player he lost 8 points.

Calculating for Player5

P5:P1=0
P5:P2=0
P5:P3=380
P5:P4=120
P5=500

Player5 has PROVISIONAL rating. For his scores, there is a different formula in use which allows more points to gain/loose.
As you can see, for the loss against very high rated he hasn't lost points, but for winning against a high rated player he has won 380 points.


I hope you got the picture how this works, and it works perfectly (I am not the author of the formula/rules, see the link above).

And for the end, can someone please answer me, why is there so little interest in this ?

What is wrong ?

Cheers,
Damir.

Bob Simpson

 

Two words - too complicated.

Why not just join a league?

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Dave Wilkinson

I like the idea, I think it would be a better reflection of your driving ability than GPL Rank which, although great, reflects your one off hotlapping ability.

I know we have race rank, but whoever refers to that?

However, I do agree that you will have to make it totally user friendly if it is going to stand a chance of being used

Good Luck

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Wolf-HR

Damir, it's relatively novel idea, and being in a summer peiod it's sort of understandable... I'd suggest You make the site and soon You'll have more mebers than You'd want.

Bob and Dave- I don't think it's complicated at all (save the calculations, which will be made by computer/server anyway): if there's enough 'ranked' drivers, one sends a replay to admin and later checks the new standings... And I find it more flexible (time wise and opponent wise) than leagues- one can race when and where he wants, against whole bunch of opponents.

P.S. (O.T.) - Damir, do You know where in our town one could get pots for Logitech pedals? I've even tried their licensed service, but to no avail... :\ (And I must get my 'Ring time down if we want to be first in 'corrected' F3 Nations Cup on Rank. )

__________________
[Aside.] Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.

9'01.2" - 9'01.5" - 9'01.4" - 9'01.0" = ticket to immortality (four consecutive laps in '61 German GP by eventual winner)

Habanero

Bob, it should be not complicated at all.

All the calculations, as said by WOLF-HR (thanks for the support), will be done by the computer.

All you, as a driver have to do (exactly only one of all the drivers in the race) is to export the race results and than send to me for processing.

When the WEB page will be done, you will just submit it.


Cheers,
Damir.


P.S. Wolf, did you check "Chipoteka" ?

McGonigle

A couple of months ago Brian Wong aired an idea which, if I've remembered and understood correctly, had the same basic goal in mind:

Make the racing performance count towards a ranking, so that drivers would take great care to finish races, and to drive consistantly over a longer duration than only one race.

When Brian put forward the idea, the interest was just a bit on the low side, so Brian put the idea on hold.

Your idea Damir, and Brians scheme, are worthwhile pursuing imo.

Now, the rules and calculations are a bit complicated for me to understand, but basically I would advise strongly *against* forcing any sort of car restriction. Rather, I think it would be very cool if the Monster Rank aspect, i.e. you'd have a Ladder-rank per chassis, could be used.

Otherwise I'd say you should definately go ahead with this; perpaps start with a functional demo so you can determine what the basic functionality should contain, and fine-tune the rules.

Perhaps I'm only dreaming, the data-amount would probably be huge, - but if there was any possibility for making the stats for a given driver available for browsing, that would be fabulous.

Anyway, I'll volunteer as beta-tester.

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Jens C. Lindblad

grad

since i do VROC pickup races sometimes and retire coz of some wrecker in 3/4 of it i think this system could make pickups more ordered. and i think many other people think in the same way about pickups, wreckers are few but they destroy many races.
what this system needs is testing, even if its with relatively few people. not many ppl will take this seriously until they see it being used. but only testing it will discover eventual flaws of it. despite many fine intelectuals banging their heads about it.
agree completely with those who say that there should be no restrictions /car or tracks/. i never ever drive lotus and that would be stupid reason for me not being able to take part in ladder.
but most important thing is that it will be used by many only if there is easy way to upload like GPL rank.
im interested to see if this can work really so i will take part in this in whatever form it appears now
also i believe it would be more meaningful system than GPL rank is.

ivandjj

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ivandjj

YelloGreen67

I'm still slightly wondering how this tool could prevent wreckers from wrecking.

They just show up for this reason and will not be interested to get a decent race rank anyway.

Until a point where this tool can be used to filter them out because of their low ranks, i.e. when hosts could get the possibility within a new VROC interface to open their races only to rankers from a certain rank onwards.

But then ALL low rankers would be filtered out, not only the wreckers - and we would have the same restrictions in VROC like the Sierra servers have in Nascar 2003. Which I already described above as a bad thing.

Anyway, the tool as such - like Damir desccribes it in its current state - won't sort the wreckers out ...


Cheers,
YG

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