So, what's with all the alpha/beta tracks...

[John Bradley]

Some of you might have seen me yammering about this already in one of my recent "BAPOM Releases" threads. Thought I'd repost the relevant bits here in the main forum for increased visibility. Pardon me if you're already read this...

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So, nine years into the GPL Adventure, and here we are. It is my belief that GPL is winding down, not necessarily dying. There are a number of different-car mods under development, and a couple of major new tracks to be released eventually. Even if all development stopped tomorrow, lots of us will have GPL installed for many years to follow - there's just so many already-released goodies out there already, and most of us have barely scratched the surface of what's available. Who's got the time to ever master 500+ tracks and 20-30+ different cars.

That said, I'm pretty sure that (on the whole) new GPL track releases are going to be increasingly rare events from here on out. There aren't that many track authors still working, and there aren't that many really crucial or historically-relevant tracks left to do. (Not that there isn't plenty of room for improvement on some of the older releases.)

Personally, I'd like to take this opportunity to look back on the past, and improve it where possible. To that end, I'd like to see all (or nearly all) of the old tracks listed on the GPLtd officially finalized. Obviously, the vast majority of them are final at this stage, in the sense that their authors have stopped work on them. They're as done as they're getting. In the interests of closure, it'd be nice if 'we' could contact the trackmakers and get them to 'sign off' on their last release, or hand the build files off to someone else for completion if necessary.

Why I care if a track is 'final' or not:

• selfish reason #1 - at this point, I'm committed to doing a progset for every single track, and if my last releases were for actual 'final' tracks, they'd be a little more relevant and more people would download them. And that would please me.
• selfish reason #2 - final tracks get added to the TotalRank. Adding a track to the TR means that at least 15-20 guys will drive it. And I'm one of them. How else am I going to be able to compare my midoca71 lap times with anyone else?
• selfish reason #3 - Order, must have order! I like things (both 'individual track projects' and 'GPL as a whole') to be finished, well sorted out, organized, etc. Having a hard drive full of tracks in various stages of disrepair is somewhat upsetting to (self-admittedly disturbed) people such as myself.
• semi-altruistic reason #1 - There are a handful of great tracks, and 2-3 dozen pretty good tracks out there that hardly anybody has seen. Most folks (self included) don't download track betas when they are released - "wait for the final," that's what I say. Unfortunately, that means a whole lot of never-finalized tracks have been ignored and largely forgotten over the years. The guys who made these tracks spent a huge amount of time working on them, their efforts deserve more attention and accolades than they were likely to have received at the time. I'd like to 'fix' that retroactively, as much as is possible. Better late than never!

What's 'final' mean, anyway?

Well, that's a debatable point, and since I'm the one at the podium, here are my thoughts:

• the author is no longer interested in developing it further - or is, but is still willing to call the current version 'done' for now, to possibly be replaced/updated later
• track is still available
• the track should be drivable, and not (easily/repeatably/constantly) CTD
• it shouldn't be possible to get 'stuck' (shift-R places the car in the middle of a wall or haybale or whatever)
• pitboxes should be defined (even if there's no pitlane, and they're just on the side of the road). Entering a race practice session shouldn't result in huge explosions and flying cars because of bad pitbox positioning.
• AI should exist (where possible), so the cars don't fart around on the racing line at 40MPH for the whole lap.
• minimal necessary graphics touches for drivability: a starter, an s/f line, some brake markers and/or a groove where needed, etc.

That's pretty much it. To me, it only matters that the track is complete: you can get in your car in practice, qualify, and run a race against the AI without any major problems. Whether the track is good or not, or ugly or not doesn't really affect whether it's 'done', to my mind.

Likewise, it doesn't matter to me whether a track has been subsumed by some later, better version. charades is a complete track (if not especially decorative), and I'd call it final even though it's not as 'good' as either charad70 or clermont. Taken on its own merits, it does everything it needs to do. Same deal with reims66, jyllands, and others.

--jhb

[John Bradley]

There are currently 86 tracks listed as 'alpha' or 'beta' on the GPLtd, not counting a few tracks that simply are no longer available.

I've completed a survey of those tracks, to gather my impressions of them, see where they stand and what, if anything, would be necessary to complete them (by my particular criteria, at least).

Here goes - sorry about the length!


a198 - Not Good - 'snake' road at points, CTD once, bad pitboard position, AI works, though.

akron - Fine 1.5m heavily banked oval. Has slow AI, pits, etc. Sort of like a much-larger bristol. Needs draw-ahead distance extended.

autop - Visible 'track ribbon in sky' at one point, but otherwise a good looking track, with good AI. Final in all but name.

avus - no pit or starting grid, no ai. Floating upside-down (!) starter. Largely featureless snoozefest.

bavaria - Surprisingly good track, fun to drive.

bottom - AI problems (they all pit in after 1 lap in a race). Textures are a little repetitive and dated, but on the whole it's a fine track.

brno - Great track, pleasant drive. Has AI. Minor sky-ribbon visiblity at one point.

brook - Interesting 'road oval', bumpy with elevation changes. Has AI. Needs texture work (solid color test textures, etc.) and extended draw-ahead. Robert is still working on it.

bullrun - Some graphics issues (draw-ahead probs, weird flickering under the car, etc.) but otherwise fine.

camden - Needs AI. Delete static helecopter mip. Otherwise, it's a great, beautiful oval. Unique shape, too (long straights, tight banked corners)

carnival - An earlier, flatter version of diamante. No AI. Otherwise, it looks good and drives well.

central - Good, but not great. Has some draw-ahead issues and a visible 'track ribbon' atone point. Otherwise fully-functional, good AI, good to drive. If the graphics could be improved, great, but regardless it's still a 'final' quality track.

charades - Featureless ribbon, has s/f line and AI. Is FUN to drive. Not *quite* the same layout as chard70 or clermont, so it might be worth finishing up.

chayka - Graphically fine, no problems on that front. An irritating drive: flat track, can't see the corners at all."

cmblltwn - 1m flat dirt track, bumpy. Looks fine. AI parked in middle of track during practice. No AI. Distracting 'twinkly' fence texture.

coldland - A retextured version of Gronland - final in all but name.

columbia - Graphics issues - draw-ahead problems, irritating flashing 'clipping' problem. Has AI, is 'complete', just ugly.

dueltrak - No AI, Levitating flag men. A fun high-speed hilly romp, ala senza.

ebisue - GREAT track. Final in all but name.

edring - Minor graphics problems (broken treewall texture, some draw-ahead flicker), Good ai, fun drive.

frog67 - A flat featureless track-ribbon, and it's also unbelievably long and complicated. Starting grid after the s/f line means you have to do a 10min pre-race lap - that should be fixed. No AI.

fuji05 - Good looking, has AI, ship it!

fuji67 - Good track, fun to drive (think a very fast Dijon). Final in all but name. 'death_angel' has the source files, and was working on a update.

gavea - Practice = exploding flying cars. Featurless ribbon, huge sky-ribbon visibliity. Neat track (a switchback hill climb, essentially), nice to see it finished. A Sergio track - maybe he's still planning to work on it.

hethel - No AI, otherwise a perfectly fine, good-looking club circuit.

hocken98 - Fine Track - look okay, AI works, drives fine, no problems.

indyrp67 - No AI, no pit boxes. Flat featureless ribbon, can't see the turns. Grandstand looks bad from the back. Not good.

issoire - Recent release, so perhaps the author is still working on it. No pitboxes or pitlane. No AI. A very pretty flat club circuit, that needs to be completed!

jhall - Not a great track. Dead-flat with very wide road, which means it's hard to see where you're going. No AI. Graphically solid, otherwise fine.

jyllands -Solid, has AI, looks fine. Not as nicely decorated as Sergio's version, but there's not a darned thing wrong with this track!

kinletpk - A fine track, if not a great one. Has AI. Graphics: visible sky-ribbon in one area, and some of the ugliest house textures you've ever seen, but no real problems.

langhorn - Big, slightly banked circle, sort of halfway between 'pants' and 'undies'. No AI.

lhammer - Featureless, not very interesting. Ice Racing, so it gets bonus points for uniqueness. Graphically fine.

limey - Flat, featureless. Pleasant drive though, particularly if you don't think of it as a 'bad Lime Rock', but as an unrelated flat club tracck

lingotto - Practice = exploding flying cars. No AI. Looks good with unique shape - banked hairpins.

longb76 - Ehh. Cruddy track (wall-road street 'canyon'), doesn't look particularly good, but no needle-in-eye problems. AI is dangerously 'darty', but functional.

longhall - Same deal as jhall - graphically solid, no AI. It's arguably a better, more interesting drive, yet jhall's in the TotalRank and this one isn't. Go figure.

loudon - An okay track, kinda plain in the outfield section. Some draw-ahead flickering. Suicidally-placed track marshalls. Not a bad drive, though.

maceone - Broken track: 'can't load track'. Renamed 'silver.trk' to 'maceone.trk' in the DAT, track loads, but CTDs when you try to enter, even in training.

melb57 - CRAP - featurless flat ribbon, no AI, no fun.

mellaha - An earlier, more desert-y version of TRIPOLI. Far less forgiving - there are lots of invisible car-eating monsters living just off the side of the road.

midoca71 - AI seems overly-quick (in '65s), graphics aren't great, but overall this is a very good track that can be called final

mine - Good looking, good AI, complete!

montr98 - CRAP - no pitlane or pit boxes, so 'practice' == exploding car mayhem. Featureless wall/road ribbon - no s/f line, no ai, no objects, horizon or brake markers - undrivable!

monty - Very good track, good looking, fast AI, historically interesting. Complete.

monza99 - Featurless wide 'ribbon', no pitlane, no ai. Has brake markers and an s/f line. It's FUN to drive, though!

most - CRAP - Another featureless 'ribbon', CTD. No ai, pit, brake markers, s/f line, etc.

motegi - Graphically bland, needs horizon, etc. Flickering grandstand (draw-ahead issue?) No AI.

moter - Complete, decent looking, has AI. A bit 'samey' looking - could use some TSOs to differentiate the turns a bit, but it's otherwise fine.

mugello - Slow AI. Some draw-ahead, visible sky-ribbon in one area, but on the whole, a very pretty track and a great drive. Can't wait to see Ginetto finish this one up, once he's done screwing around in Sicily…!

neuvil - No AI, but otherwise it's fine.

nicoduel - No pitboxes, no starting grid, no AI. Have to drive in Training mode because of the starting grid problem. Graphics: bad textures/clipping in the 'town' section. Neat track though, with a clever way of handling the cross-over.

nurbloop - No pitboxes, no AI. Lots of graphics ugliness: draw-ahead flickering, visible track ribbon, bad textures. Kinda fun to drive if you can ignore all that, though.

oahu - Nearly flat, featureless, can't see the turns. Sky problem. An 'okay' club track, at best.

oval - (aka Monument Park) No AI. Decent looking and pleasant slightly-banked road oval.

ovil - No AI. Minor graphics weirdness (unfinished overpass?) Good track. No starting grid. Horizon texture gives it a unique look.

pescara - Practice == explosions, CTD. Early alpha (featureless ribbon), but it's one of Sergio's, and he's still around, so maybe it'll get finished later.

phoen67 - Graphically bland, needs horizon and texture work. Draw-ahead issues. No AI. Needs brake markers or groove to help with corner braking

pi67 - No AI. The graphics are sparse, and there's a screwed up sky texture, but otherwise it's fine.

piclong - Great track, beautiful, working AI, etc. Final in all but name.

reims66 - Complete. Not as nicely decorated as reims, but a perfectly fine, pleasant track on its own merits.

reimsg - Complete. Graphically dated (repetitive textures, some draw-ahead flicker). A somewhat-different version of the track layout than the other two versions.

rivers66 - There's a minor graphics weirdness near the turn 8 area (where the inner loop rejoins the main road), but otherwise it's fine and complete.

rivers67 - Merge ebi's AI in with the distribution and it's good and complete. No graphics issues, unlike rivers66

ruurlo - Tight, heavily banked short track (0.4mi), ala bristol. No AI. Looks fine. Needs TV1/2 cameras.

sears97 - Impossibly fast AI (in '65s, at least). Minor graphics issues (visible sky ribbon) in some areas. Okay, if not particularly good.

sendai - Good, complete.

silliest - No pits, no AI. A goofy, fun track, graphically fine if not great - worth finishing for the 'uniqueness' aspect.

silv98 - CRAP - featureless ribbon, no AI, s/f line, brake markers, pit, etc. Mostly undrivable.

slun - A GREAT TRACK. Complete.

smogbank - Slightly visible 'sky ribbon' at times. Not a compelling track, but it does everything it needs to. Complete.

sprngfld - Heavily banked 1mi oval. Has AI. Distracting draw-ahead problems (fix those and its final)

stig - No AI, flat airfield track, not very well labeled - not only are the turns hard to see, it's hard to know what path you're supposed to take. Uninspiring graphics, some draw-ahead flicker, no starting grid, etc.

summit - Really short race distance. Graphics are fine, sky-ribbon in one area but generally fair-to-good. Probably better than either of the jhall versions.

suzu00 - Beautiful track. The AI can't handle the Casio Triangle, unfortunately - otherwise it's great.

szk78 - Not as pretty as suzu00, but the AI works. Complete.

testtrk - Needs AI and pit boxes, but otherwise it's a uniquely-pretty and pleasant oval.

thill - No AI. Graphics are nice, if not great. Visible ribbon in places, could use some more turn/brake markers. A fun-to-drive hilly club circuit.

tiaida - Great and pretty track with good AI, nice racey drive. Final in all but name.

tokachi - A good looking track. Not great to drive (too many identical tight turns), but has AI, is complete.

trent67 - Has some iffy textures (transporters, billboards) but on the whole is quite pretty. Has slowish AI. Easy to finalize.

vallelun - Good looking, complete with AI. A recent release, perhaps the author is still working on it, though it doesn't obviously need anything done. Maybe get Fulvio to sign off on it...

westwood - A good fun track, with AI. Complete

yamato - A good fun track, with AI. Highspeed fantasy run. Complete

yolkfolk - no AI. Undrivable. Given all that, it might be as complete as it needs to be (or can be), and could be marked 'final'..

zandy39b - CRAP - flat featureless track ribbon, no AI, etc. But it is in the TotalRank, go figure!


--jhb

[John Bradley]

And the executive summary:

The following 35 tracks are 'complete', and could be finalized with a stroke of a pen, to my mind:

autop, brno, bullrun, central, charades, coldland, columbia, ebisue, edring, fuji05, fuji67, hocken98, jyllands, kinletpk, midoca71, mine, monty, moter, piclong, reims66, reimsg, rivers66, rivers67, sendai, slun, smogbank, sprngfld, szk78, tiaida, tokachi, trent67, vallelun, westwood, yamato, yolkfolk

The following 25 tracks are almost complete - they just need AI (and maybe a trivial .ini or mip change):

bavaria, bottom, camden, carnival, chayka, dueltrak, hethel, issoire, jhall, langhorn, lhammer, limey, longhall, mellaha, monza99, neuvil, oval, pi67, ruurlo, sears97, silliest, summit, suzu00, testtrk, thill,

The following 4 tracks have AI, but need something else done...

a198, akron, longb76, maceone,

The following 20 tracks need 'more'...

avus, cmblltwn, frog67, gavea, indyrp67, lingotto, loudon, melb57, montr98, most, motegi, nicoduel, nurbloop, oahu, ovil, pescara, phoen67, silv98, stig, zandy39b

These 2 tracks are still "in progress" by their authors:

brook, mugello

So, if any like-minded completion-fetishists agree with my assessment, and want to help out, there are two sub-projects that would net us a quick 60 'new' tracks.

• we need to attempt to contact the authors of the 'complete' tracks and get them to 'sign off' on them.
• there are 25 tracks there that just need some AI created. I know that's not the easiest thing in the world, but it's hardly an insurmountable task. Particularly if it doesn't have to be especially good AI - but that's something for whomever to decide how much effort they feel like putting into it.

--jhb

[stuboyle]

Great post John. I agree that many tracks, whether they be alpha, beta or complete, have significant room for improvement and maybe our time would be better spent improving some of the existing inventory. Actually, this has happened in some sense when you see graphical enhancements posted on the Sim Racing Mirrorzone. The problem is that these enhancement never get incorporated into the original track. What if trackmakers who plan on not doing any enhancements "gift" their tracks in trust to the GPL Preservation Society (GPLPS). The GPLPS would then be the "gatekeeper" of enhancements to these tracks and would have the authority to release official updated versions. Any thoughts?

[John Bradley]

One last thing - here's an Excel spreadsheet containing some additional data on all these tracks (as well as the other 462 already-final tracks).

--jhb

[apthomson]

I would certainly love to see more 'stable' tracks. Other than the original 11 there are actually very few of the 500+ that never freeze or Crash To Desktop when driving in multiplayer mode or 'online' as it is generally refered to around here

[Michi Michkov]

It just jumped to my mind that on the TDB we could have a value which say on a glance how stable the track is. It could be done by user input.

[Bob]

one of the tracks you list as only needing AI, actually needs quite a bit more ... the Phillip Island that is currently available still has the floating guillotine, sheep on the main straight, a bad sky, not the best gfx, and a few more more glitches

whether you can call that finished or not, I did finish it ... I did install the fine AI by McCollum and Derrick ... then I added some new gfx, a sky/horizon from Scottie, fixed and/or replaced a lot of the original graphics, got rid of the floating guillotine and the sheep, tweaked the AI just a bit more, created a couple driver ini's, and created all my own pbf's

I have seen a few others work on this track, Eric B, and others, they've even left their names on some of the files I adjusted/removed/replaced ... but the current available track is still in an unfinished state

I did this for my own enjoyment, with no intention of making it public ... but, I did give it to my league members, as a Christmas present, with instructions not to release, publish, share or give the track to anyone outside my league

I actually tried to contact Doc Roberto several years ago to offer help in finishing it, but never could contact him or received a reply

so, should I offer my version for download, with no real permission from Doc Roberto ? ... it seems others have done what I have done as well, one guy even posted his version, in a thread, with no fanfare or reprecussions ... my reason for not releasing it was I had no permission to do so and I was not going to take any grief about it

so, if Doc Roberto, or the community thinks it is ok to release my version of Phillip Island, I will gladly do so ... all it really needs is a BAPOM program cover and a new GEM pic ... here are a few pics

[MECH]

Pleas ignore this post it's my (odd) way for subscribing to an interesting thread

[Roo69]

John,
Hmm, a little OT but I noticed your location & it brought back a few memories ... I used to live in Doylestown, PA about 10 years ago & have some friends who live in Havertown. I hope old Bryn Mawr is treating you well

PS I agree it would be great to have some of these tracks 'finished' too.

[Bo Bruce]

John... thanks for taking what must have been an incredible amount of time to assemble all the info. also to do what has been on my mind - wondering - for quite a while, but didnt know where to start!

there is another category(?) and that is for tracks that seem to work offline, but have issues online. case in point Spa98. i love this track, but it can't be raced online with more than 12 (if i recall) drivers. Also pit exit makes it near impossible for the Ai to leave the pits. even for humans!

with regard to AI... i know most of the time all it takes is for someone to driver 'x' amount of laps. and then do some magic with the files. i would be willing to drive laps, if someone could incorporate them with the track.

in the end, i am really thankful you put this list together. its at least a place to start.

[John Bradley]

Bob: Excellent work on pi67, that the sort of thing I'm looking for!

For cases like these where the track author can't be contacted, I personally think a reasonable solution would be for you (in this case) to package up a 'complete' version of the track with all your fixes, and hand it off to Dangermouse to be packaged into a standard distribution (with Track Installer, etc.).

Then put a link to that version up in the GPLMZ 'Get Track' link as the preferred ("Community Enhanced") download for the track, while keeping a link to the original Doc Roberto version available right below it, in case anyone needs/wants to get the 'last really official' version for whatever reason.

But you'll note that I'm not suggesting that *I* do any of that work, so you and DM should take it in the spirit of abject laziness in which it was offered!

--jhb

[John Bradley]

Originally Posted by Bo Bruce

there is another category(?) and that is for tracks that seem to work offline, but have issues online. case in point Spa98. i love this track, but it can't be raced online with more than 12 (if i recall) drivers. Also pit exit makes it near impossible for the Ai to leave the pits. even for humans!

with regard to AI... i know most of the time all it takes is for someone to driver 'x' amount of laps. and then do some magic with the files. i would be willing to drive laps, if someone could incorporate them with the track.

in the end, i am really thankful you put this list together. its at least a place to start.

Hey Bo, glad to be of service!

As for the "can be raced online" question - that's tricky at best to determine. Basically impossible to find out now, unless some of you guys are still in active leagues. Don't know how else you're going to get 12 guys to try driving Lingotto (or whatever) simultaneously!

It's worth adding another column to the spreadsheet (and maybe another bit of info to the GPLTD) to note tracks that are known not to work well on-line. But as I say, it's going to be hard to test many of the "who knows if it works online, it's never been done!" tracks.


On the AI-making front, I was asking around over in Sergio-land, figuring that, worst-case I'd have a go at making some crappy AI myself if I couldn't find anybody else to do it.

Here's a link to Beckman's AI-making tutorial. I haven't read it yet, but it might not be too bad. And of course, for a lot of the crappier tracks, just having 'some' AI would be enough - no point spending days making really great AI for something like, say, zandy39b or montr98...

--jhb

[Dark]

As a fellow total rank holder i applaud your efforts John, thank you sir

I like Stu's idea of the GPLPS being the gatekeepers for all these tracks that are not in final status, i would definitely like to see them all included in the total rank someday no matter what state they are in, if they are finished to a nice standard then thats a bonus for me

[MDW1961]

Originally Posted by Dark

As a fellow total rank holder i applaud your efforts John, thank you sir

I like Stu's idea of the GPLPS being the gatekeepers for all these tracks that are not in final status, i would definitely like to see them all included in the total rank someday no matter what state they are in, if they are finished to a nice standard then thats a bonus for me

What he said!!!!!

[MECH]

The following 25 tracks are almost complete - they just need AI (and maybe a trivial .ini or mip change):bavaria, bottom, camden, carnival, chayka, dueltrak, hethel, issoire, jhall, langhorn, lhammer, limey, longhall, mellaha, monza99, neuvil, oval, pi67, ruurlo, sears97, silliest, summit, suzu00, testtrk, thill,

Ok, i''ll commit myself to making some ai then


I will start with Bavaria....depending on how much time i can make free more will hopefully follow...

[stuboyle]

Originally Posted by John Bradley

Then put a link to that version up in the GPLMZ 'Get Track' link as the preferred ("Community Enhanced") download for the track, while keeping a link to the original Doc Roberto version available right below it, in case anyone needs/wants to get the 'last really official' version for whatever reason.

Oh, I like this idea John. Then we just need a "gatekeeper" for community enhanced version.

[buzard]

I know you have heard it before and from far more important
people than me , but ....

Thanks for your work!

You manage to "complete" a track and for all of the history of GPL
a cover and map set from BAPOM has always been the official
finalization of a track.

Also thanks for mentioning Bavaria. I have mentioned several times
in the past what a great online track it would make. It just needs
more detail on the track and a few buildings to give it some character.

Now that GPL has peaked maybe I can start trying out all the cars and
tracks that I've been archiving for almost a decade. So many downloads
so little time.

buzard

[Kanzo]

I?d gladly help anyone who?s willing to make the finished AI:s. I know how to drive the laps for race/pass1/pass2/maxrace/minrace so if you can do the rest just ask me.

[MECH]

Originally Posted by Kanzo

I?d gladly help anyone who?s willing to make the finished AI:s. I know how to drive the laps for race/pass1/pass2/maxrace/minrace so if you can do the rest just ask me.

Hi Kanzo,

You could start with the replays for Bottom. I've already dl'ed some of the 1st tracks from the list to start with. If you could post the replay files i'll make some decent lp sets from those

Bavaria is coming along nicely: they all get out of pits (that's a first in a long time, normally i'ld have to fiddle with the track.ini parms to get it working properly ) They drive around in aprox. laps of 1:21 (dunno if this is to fast but i could squeez a 1:24 out of the fez after some tries ) But overtaking needs to be implemented by adding some flags.

Ta

[smogbike]

Originally Posted by John Bradley

There are currently 86 tracks listed as 'alpha' or 'beta' on the GPLtd, not counting a few tracks that simply are no longer available.

I've completed a survey of those tracks, to gather my impressions of them, see where they stand and what, if anything, would be necessary to complete them (by my particular criteria, at least).

Here goes - sorry about the length!

bottom - AI problems (they all pit in after 1 lap in a race). Textures are a little repetitive and dated, but on the whole it's a fine trackl.

midoca71 - AI seems overly-quick (in '65s), graphics aren't great, but overall this is a very good track that can be called final!

monty - Very good track, good looking, fast AI, historically interesting. Complete.

rivers66 - There's a minor graphics weirdness near the turn 8 area (where the inner loop rejoins the main road), but otherwise it's fine and complete.

rivers67 - Merge ebi's AI in with the distribution and it's good and complete. No graphics issues, unlike rivers66

smogbank - Slightly visible 'sky ribbon' at times. Not a compelling track, but it does everything it needs to. Complete.

[/size]
--jhb

Hi John,

Just saw this thread ... support the idea.

Anyone/everyone has my permission to modify any aspect of any of my tracks EXCEPT ... NO PERMISSION TO CHANGE THE TRACK LAYOUT (i.e., where the road goes) IN ANY WAY.

Yr friend in the aether,
smogbike

[dangermouse]

vallelun - is still in progress by the author, although the layout is final.

lhammer - Gilles is willing to pass me his files. Now I just need to find an interested track maker to finish it off.

coldland - is as finished as it'll be and I'll take off the BETA if you guys wish.

I've tried to contact other authors and am waiting responses.....

[dangermouse]

Originally Posted by smogbike

Anyone/everyone has my permission

Smoggy, you happy with Monty being called complete?

Can I also assume that we can call Smogbank as finished as it'll ever be?

[Ken]

Originally Posted by Bob

one of the tracks you list as only needing AI, actually needs quite a bit more ... the Phillip Island that is currently available still has the floating guillotine, sheep on the main straight, a bad sky, not the best gfx, and a few more more glitches

whether you can call that finished or not, I did finish it ... I did install the fine AI by McCollum and Derrick ... then I added some new gfx, a sky/horizon from Scottie, fixed and/or replaced a lot of the original graphics, got rid of the floating guillotine and the sheep, tweaked the AI just a bit more, created a couple driver ini's, and created all my own pbf's

I have seen a few others work on this track, Eric B, and others, they've even left their names on some of the files I adjusted/removed/replaced ... but the current available track is still in an unfinished state

I did this for my own enjoyment, with no intention of making it public ... but, I did give it to my league members, as a Christmas present, with instructions not to release, publish, share or give the track to anyone outside my league

I actually tried to contact Doc Roberto several years ago to offer help in finishing it, but never could contact him or received a reply

so, should I offer my version for download, with no real permission from Doc Roberto ? ... it seems others have done what I have done as well, one guy even posted his version, in a thread, with no fanfare or reprecussions ... my reason for not releasing it was I had no permission to do so and I was not going to take any grief about it

so, if Doc Roberto, or the community thinks it is ok to release my version of Phillip Island, I will gladly do so ... all it really needs is a BAPOM program cover and a new GEM pic ... here are a few pics

Bob, great that you've put so much work in to PI but just a comment regarding the horizon. I don't think that one is particularily suitable. From what I've seen on TV pictures it's mainly just a seascape, with non of the rather large hills as per the Scottie "off the shelf" you have put in there. On the other hand users are free to pick any other Scottie horizon they think might fit more appropriately.

[Kanzo]

Originally Posted by MECH

Hi Kanzo,

You could start with the replays for Bottom. I've already dl'ed some of the 1st tracks from the list to start with. If you could post the replay files i'll make some decent lp sets from those

Great, Martin. That?s a deal then! I?ll start with Bottom.