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Old 31-08-2003, 01:17   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pine
Do you think Autosport will have a map of the track in one of their November 1970 Issues? I don't read it regularly (and I certainly didn't read it before I was born!) so I don't know if they include track maps in coverage of these kind of events.
i'm not sure about that, but it may be worth asking. do you know their series "from the archives"? they probably should have some material. i just talked to my dad (he really likes the idea of building the barnea track for gpl) about the race and if he had some phone numbers and guess what he told me:
some years ago, at the "BP-trophy" event (a prize given to swiss people who are successfully involved in racing as drivers, team owners, supporters etc.), long after midnight he was sitting with Perrot talking about the old days and they had the idea of organising a veterans meeting of the first and only ever grand prix of israel (i didn't know about that before, honestly!). so there might be some more info coming.
if only someone of these old boys had a track map!


Quote:
Originally posted by Owain Shaw
Those were photographers and they were bloody nuts in those days, standing right on the apex of stupidly fast and dangerous corners, on the track, leaning over walls etc. A good quote is:

"their lenses may have been small but they stood tall in the bravery stakes"
i've cut out an article from an old issue of Autosport (late 70s or early 80s) about stupid photographers, mainly about a 'Ring accident in a group C race. one car went off track, bounced back from the armco, across the track and hit a group of photographers who were standing in a totally stupid place. luckily no one got killed, but some were hurt.
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Old 31-08-2003, 01:44   #27
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I just found out that Eduard Atler works as a journalist in a weekly newspaper in Israel and sent him an e-mail. The person who told me that also said that Atler shares his time between Israel and Poland so it may take him a while before he answers me.
Fingers Crossed!
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Old 31-08-2003, 02:27   #28
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Nice detective work Pine
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Old 31-08-2003, 03:22   #29
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i'll be away for a few days, but hopefully returning with some news...
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Old 31-08-2003, 03:37   #30
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More Info!!!

Not only does Atler write for this newspaper, he wrote about this race meeting in this newspaper! I'll do my best to translate the interesting parts:

"at the end of the long straight, where my slightly tuned Opel GT reached almost 200 Km/h, spectators were standing holding children in their arms, leaving only 2 meters of track for the cars. I had the same kind of 'reception' in the corners, so I had to forget about the racing line that I carefully chose after a week of practice. My new goal was to reach the finish line without killing any spectator."

"... [the drivers and teams] had high hopes from the new track, more than 4 kilometers long, wisely twisting through the streets of the city and it's suburbs."

"'The Ashkelon track is more interesting than Monte-Carlo, because it has more overtaking spots' said to me an enthusiastic Derek Bell. After the race was stopped, the very same Bell had tears in his eyes. 'There isn't a place in the world where I didn't race, rally, off-road or ride. I raced in Africa, Asia, places where motor civilization didn't even reach. But I've never ever seen such primitive behavior as of the spectators in Ashkelon. It's sad, but you'll have to forget about Formula races for a few generations at least'".

Atler later mentions a few more interesting facts:
* there is no documentation whatsoever about the race in the Israeli Automobile Club. (saved me a phone call )
* Atler is a movie director, he worked for the Israeli television at the time, and in addition to racing in the event, he also produced a 45-minute documentary about the race! I wonder if he, or the Israeli television, still have it.

So I think the main things we know now are that the track was more than 4 kilometers long, it was probably going through the Barnea neighborhood as well as the older parts of Ashkelon, and that there were a few overtaking spots in it.
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Old 31-08-2003, 04:29   #31
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Nice thread, very amazing stuff guys!!

I found this timetable on "the programme covers project"-site
It seems to fit in with the "entrants" scans

http://progcovers.m4driving.sm/motor/ashkelon70.jpg

Maybe the people from the Sehadar Hotel have some recollection of the race....
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Old 31-08-2003, 20:53   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by pirenzo
hmm, it would be nice to see if any of the drivers remember it...
Anyone know Derek Bell's phone number?
I'll e.mail him and see what happens...
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Old 31-08-2003, 21:26   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Real Buchinski
Maybe the people from the Sehadar Hotel have some recollection of the race....
interesting idea. i already wondered if the hotel still exists.

Quote:
Originally posted by The Real Buchinski
[b]I found this timetable on "the programme covers project"-site
It seems to fit in with the "entrants" scans
]
yeah, it fits in with the entrant scans. i scanned it


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Old 31-08-2003, 21:45   #34
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According to the Ashkelon Municipality website, the hotel doesn't exist today.

Edit: The name Sehadar is probably wrong, it doesn't mean anything in Hebrew. It should Probably be Semadar, but I couldn't find a Semadar hotel in Ashkelon either.
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Old 31-08-2003, 21:50   #35
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This will be a great GPL track, if only for the effort involved in working out the layout of the place!
If you guys can get this track together...
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Old 01-09-2003, 08:45   #36
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OK, I have bad news and good news. The bad news is that we got Atler's name wrong -- it's actually Etler. The good news is that I know it because that's how he signed the e-mail he sent to me

He sent me his phone number and I'm going to call him tomorrow. Bob, if you have anything specific you want me to ask him please tell me ASAP. I think the main things I'm going to ask him about are track map, pictures, and the film he did. If anyone has more ideas, I'd love to hear.
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Old 01-09-2003, 09:09   #37
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wow! that's no bad news at all!
i think your list of requests contains everything necessary. any pictures available will be great, if there are some detailed trackside views, i'd like to see them too. film would be great for altitudes (now i have to make a confession: if we can get this thing going, that would be the first full track project for me since i did only adverts and pits textures for hockenheim). if there is an existing poster of the event, that would be nice too because the official programme is what you see on the program covers project (yeah i know i always start things from the wrong side )

i will try to contact some of the swiss and german drivers as soon as i'm back in switzerland (that will be next week) to ask for more photos.

btw: Semadar hotel should be correct, i have an updated timetable that was typed ona letter sheet from the hotel.

*runs away because there's a girl waiting...*
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Old 01-09-2003, 22:43   #38
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I'm afraid I have bad news now...
I just talked to Etler, he was incredibly nice and I'm sure he'll do his very best to help us, but he doesn't have a copy of the movie, and he's 99% sure that the Israeli television destroyed the only copy
He doesn't think he has a map of the track, but he will check for us. The only thing he's sure about is that he has photos from that weekend, but until we see them we can't tell how helpful these photos are going to be.
The thing is that as I said, Etler shares his time between Poland and Israel, and all the photos from Ashkelon are in Poland. It will take something like a month or two until Etler will be able to give me an answer.
Another problem is that Etler thinks the roads have changed between 1970 and today - he said he visited Ashkelon in the mid '80s and couldn't find the track I was very dissapointed to hear this, and frankly I still have some hope that maybe the roads are still the same but he couldn't recorgnize them becuase they were surrounded with buildings by then... Slim chance, I know, but hoping is better then giving up, right?
On a more positive note, he said that I should try to ask about the race at the Ashkelon municipality (I will do it but not immidiately - I really do have to work sometimes. But don't let me forget about this, Bob!) and he also said that he may be able to talk to some of the other Israeli competitors.

I think that my bottom line is this: Bob, do your best to find a map, because my chances of getting one don't look that good

Another thing: I see that no-one thanked Ray Bell yet for e-mailing Derek Bell. This is not a joke - Ray is a well known motorsports journalist and I'm sure he does have Derek's address and that he did use it. So thank you Ray!
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Old 02-09-2003, 01:04   #39
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thanks Ray & Pine!

Quote:
Originally posted by Pine
hoping is better then giving up, right?
so i hope to find Jantke and Perrot and that they'll be able to help.
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Old 02-09-2003, 02:26   #40
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Hi all,
I have been following this thread with a lot of interest. If needed I would be more than happy to help you produce the gtk file for the Ashkelon track.
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Old 02-09-2003, 02:33   #41
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Hi all,
I have been following this thread with a lot of interest. If needed I would be more than happy to help you produce the gtk file for the Ashkelon track.
thanks for the offer Arthur!
(i was just waiting for your reply here )
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Old 02-09-2003, 16:28   #42
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I've been following this thread with amazement. Just one more example of how great the GPL community is.
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Old 08-09-2003, 01:29   #43
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A thoroughly helpful guy at the Israeli Formula 1 forum found for us the number 34 driver in the Touring Car race, David Price. He said it took some effort, but David agreed to dive into his warehouse and see if he has anything left form that weekend. However, he doesn't believe he has the map of the track
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Old 08-09-2003, 01:51   #44
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well, at least there's some hope
jusr jesterday i had the idea to ask my dad to draw a track map from his memory. won't be too exact with the distance of 32 1/2 years i think, but at least it would give an imagination.
business is runnig at high speed atm but i think i'll find a free minute to contact one or two german drivers when i found out their number.
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Old 11-09-2003, 09:41   #45
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Some more news, but not yet the breakthrough I want to see...

Another guy from the Israeli F1 forum, Duby Miller, is going to help us. Duby is really serious -- he wants to write a book about the history of motorsports in Israel (more like a booklet? ) and the Ashkelon GP is going to be an important part of this book. He's been in touch with Etler for a few months now, and today they actually met. Duby said the meeting was fantastic -- he said Etler is full of enthusiasm, very very willing to help, and that he remembers the track very well. So I hope that even if we don't find a map of the track, we'll be able to compare Etler's memories to an old air photo of the Barnea neighborhood (it should be possible to find one) and see where the track was.
Etler also gave Duby a few more names of people who may be able to help.

Bob, it's such a coincidence that Duby and you started looking into it at the same time. Lucky us!
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Old 11-09-2003, 11:37   #46
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Bob, it's such a coincidence that Duby and you started looking into it at the same time. Lucky us!


Quote:
Originally posted by Pine
even if we don't find a map of the track, we'll be able to compare memories
i got one!
not an official one though but after i arrived in switzerland today, i could "force" my dad to draw a track map from his memory before he went for a short holiday in italy. couldn't scan it yet (veeeeeeerrrrrrrrryyyyyy busy day) but will tomorrow.
he says that i'ts probably not 100% accurate but will help giving us a general idea. i will add everything that he told me about the track sections (including the curve that had barbed wire instead of armco). must have been quite hilly.
more details soon.
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Old 11-09-2003, 21:04   #47
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Looking forward to see the map!
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Old 12-09-2003, 02:31   #48
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here it is:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg gpi70_v01.jpg (71.6 KB, 271 views)
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Old 12-09-2003, 03:37   #49
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great effort David
looking forward to this track project
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Old 12-09-2003, 05:30   #50
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Thanks Bob. I'll try to see if there anything that fits in a detailed map of Ashkelon, and in case I don't find anything I'll start checking if the roads were changed. Duby and I have a few ideas about how to do it.
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