1965 mod and enhanced aero model ...

[nardin]

The 1966 mod offered me a great deal of splendid racing over the last couple of weeks. It was partly due to the great drivers I raced against, and partly to this spectacular physic feature - the new aerodynamic model.

It provides massive slipstream on fast tracks, front-end lift in the fast bends, and overall a very convincing version of "how it was back then" - a lot more hairy than their 1965 virtual counterparts.


Now every regular GPL racer has had enough time to experiment the new aero models, I'd like to discuss about a new version of the 1965 mod. In my opinion, enhanced physics and improved online "raceability" have to be considered for the "mother of all GPL mods".
These tiny 65ers are brilliant, imagine what they'd be like with a bit of extra tow and a touch of lift ...

Please, think about it ! I want my beloved T77 back to the top of GPL capabilities !

[abrooks29]

Hmmm..no. Leave the 65's alone.

[brr]

Originally Posted by nardin

These tiny 65ers are brilliant, imagine what they'd be like with a bit of extra tow and a touch of lift ...

I imagine they would be pretty close to the 2 litre cars in the 66 mod. So why bother?

[Border Reiver]

Originally Posted by nardin

The 1966 mod offered me a great deal of splendid racing over the last couple of weeks. It was partly due to the great drivers I raced against, and partly to this spectacular physic feature - the new aerodynamic model.

It provides massive slipstream on fast tracks, front-end lift in the fast bends, and overall a very convincing version of "how it was back then" - a lot more hairy than their 1965 virtual counterparts.


Now every regular GPL racer has had enough time to experiment the new aero models, I'd like to discuss about a new version of the 1965 mod. In my opinion, enhanced physics and improved online "raceability" have to be considered for the "mother of all GPL mods".
These tiny 65ers are brilliant, imagine what they'd be like with a bit of extra tow and a touch of lift ...

Please, think about it ! I want my beloved T77 back to the top of GPL capabilities !

Well said that man, I couldn't agree more.

A point further hammered home during a recent first run in a long time in a 65 car at Mexico. Despite sitting 40m behind another identical car I watched it slowly creep away along the whole front straight to be 50m ahead by the end. Next lap my exit was fractionally better than his, so I crept up on him by about 10 or 15m along the straight. Either way there was not a sniff of any sort of draft pass no matter which order we exited the last turn during the whole ten or fifteen laps that we ran nose to tail, any position swaps were braking moves into T3. In 66 we were getting one or even two draft passes along the mile or so front straight at Mexico. I looked at the speeds and it made no odds to be 40m behind him or not, my car maxed out at the same top speed. (And not on the limiter I hasten to add).

The cars are very different to the 2 litre 66 cars. For a start they have smaller engines and the rev gain from tow should be more dramatic as they rev higher. They are also lighter in 65, and you will find at some tracks that despite having a bigger engine, the 66 version is slower than the 65 due to the additional power being offset by the additional weight required to come up to the 66 minimum weight limit rules.

Nardin, you are spot on, 65 could and indeed should, be a fantastic, close racing and clean racing formula for online that seems sadly doomed to be consigned to being an also ran. The small 66 cars to some extent come close, but in others are no where near the same. The 2.5 and 2.7 litre lower revving, more torquey cars don't have the same challenge of having to save every rev you can and not scrub speed through a drifting turn that you do in the 1.5 litre screamers.

Rob

[RealOldFred]

Aiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!

Be careful about the feelings you are stirring up!

Better look here first:

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=309349

[lt1]

I would be in favor of the update.

[Ruud Dingemans]

I'd favour an update too - an all-in one update only that is, with all the improvements of the 66 mod etc. included.

But this has been discussed before and so far, not been decided because there would have to be (I guess) near-unanimity before this would be pursued.
(Personally, I don't see any real problems with regard to set Rank times since the times in the improved mod would have to be slower.)





I have proposed the solution several times though: do it by going the way of a 64 Mod.




This could have *every* improvement incorporated, and we'd gain another mod relatively easily since only two cars models (the Honda and the Ferrari 1512 --> 158) would have to be altered 3d0-wise. The rest of the alterations would be relatively minor compared to the already-done 65 mod/carset, which could of course be used as the base to work from.

(Of course, with the 7-car barrier broken we'd also have the option of having more cars per season, but I guess that'd have to be more of an option.)


So far, no-one took me up on the idea though, even tho I thought it was a pretty decent one - sigh.

Regards, Rudy
(GPLRank: -36)

[Border Reiver]

Originally Posted by Ruud Dingemans

I'd favour an update too - an all-in one update only that is, with all the improvements of the 66 mod etc. included.

But this has been discussed before and so far, not been decided because there would have to be (I guess) near-unanimity before this would be pursued.
(Personally, I don't see any real problems with regard to set Rank times since the times in the improved mod would have to be slower.)





I have proposed the solution several times though: do it by going the way of a 64 Mod.




This could have *every* improvement incorporated, and we'd gain another mod relatively easily since only two cars models (the Honda and the Ferrari 1512 --> 158) would have to be altered 3d0-wise. The rest of the alterations would be relatively minor compared to the already-done 65 mod/carset, which could of course be used as the base to work from.

(Of course, with the 7-car barrier broken we'd also have the option of having more cars per season, but I guess that'd have to be more of an option.)


So far, no-one took me up on the idea though, even tho I thought it was a pretty decent one - sigh.

Regards, Rudy
(GPLRank: -36)

Why waste extra effort changing the carset at all when there is an excellent one already for the 65 season that is ready to go and can be easily fixed with the addition of one file? What happens to the 65 mod and all the work and efforts of David Wright and team; that is just left to rot as some numbers stored in some list somewhere that no one cares about and that everyone has moved on from because it is better to drive notionally earlier cars since they are modeled more realistically? Why is David and his team not allowed to update his (and his team's) work as they have expressed a wish to do since options that were not available to them when their ground breaking work was created have now become available? As stated numerous times before, the behaviour of one car alone would not be altered. People who don't race and have no interest in racing would have no change to their experience. The only change is that those who do enjoy using a car racing simulator to race against other like minded people would enjoy a more immersive experience given the inclusion of that which is currently absent, and which can be very easily fixed.

Rob

[do0g]

Well said, Rob. I'm on that team and the only reasons I can see to not change it are the effect on GPL Rank which is easily fixed by using a new id for the mod, and that people don't want change. We've already voted on this topic and the numbers were overwhelmingly in favour of improving the aero.

What I don't understand is this: practically to a man we tout GPL as being the be-all and end-all of realistic sim racing, and faced with a decision about making it more realistic people shy away because it will change things. If we didn't have change we wouldn't have the '65 mod at all. We wouldn't even have the GPLEA, the mods teams, or the amazing add-ons that the community has produced throughout the lifetime of this sim. I think that the main reason this community has survived for such a long time is because of these efforts - as a community we have improved GPL far beyond its origins, and as a community none of our decisions to alter the sim have been taken lightly... and even less so with the mods teams. Every element of change has been hotly debated until the best result for the time has been reached.

We all want this sim to be as realistic as possible - I think that's a given, that's why we're all here, because we want to experience the magic of a bygone motor racing era. As our knowledge increases and our capacity to refine our beloved sim increases with it, how can we not progress? To stagnate will ultimately lead to the end of this community, to progress is to perpetuate the community for as long as is possible.

Lastly, refining software is part of the process of creating it. It is exceedingly rare that a software product is not updated during the course of its lifetime. Updating a mod does not turn GPL into r-Factor, in fact the implications of this premise are insulting given the deliberation, research and debate that is put into every decision that composes a mod. The fact that software can be updated is one of the things that makes it possible to fix flaws without replacing the product - and if we had accidentally or otherwise released the '65 mod with three-wheeled cars would you have preferred to keep it as is or to fix it?

If you don't want GPL to be as accurate as it can be, then keep playing GPL just how you like it. No one is saying you can't or shouldn't. But similarly how can you say we can't or shouldn't modify GPL for the better, especially seeing as we have been already doing so for the entire duration of the sim's life?

You may ask how I know that the changes will be for the better - I don't. But the more people involved in voicing their considered opinions about where the flaws lie in the software, and the more people contributing their skills, ideas, and talents the better any decision we make will be. If we strive to recreate the GPL and mod seasons as accurately as possible, together as a community, we could still be involved in this community for GPL's 20th birthday.

[Saiph]

It's a shame that people feel the need to spark off new threads about old, contentious issues, simply to stir the pot. Can't you just use the search function to go back and read the many previous threads on these subjects, where all the points have been raised before? Then when you've done that, you can find something constructive to do.

[do0g]

Are you referring to me, Saiph?

In any case my post is hardly antagonistic, and if this topic of debate is being re-raised then it must be unresolved?

[Border Reiver]

And indeed, the previous discussion on this topic was fairly immediately after the release of the 66 mod.

We are now coming up for a year into using the 66 mod, and as Nardin pointed out, we have had the opportunity to evaluate the pros and cons over a longer period of time and make more informed judgments rather than simple knee jerk reactions.

Certainly it is very sad if a rational, reasoned and informed debate proves to be impossible to conduct.

Rob

[Amagi]

Since the aero in the 65 mod has been crudely modified from 67 by inflating the top speeds, you'd have to take this out as well, though. Otherwise you'd not only have the '66 tow, you'd have added to its persistence. The '66 tow might be more reasonable when applied to the 65 cars with their true top speeds. The objectors have a marginal point. However, I haven't yet encountered a defence of the existing 65 aero that amounts to any more than 'don't change it!'. If there wasn't a rank for the improved mod- '65 online', what would the problem be?

Both the group who oppose 'the tow' and those supporting it seem committed to extreme interpretations of the available evidence. I'd like tow set at the strength of the '66 mod and persisting for 60% of the distance, whih I imagine would help to persuade critics who point out that the evidence used on distance comes from ideal circumstances. This 60% tow would still be far stronger than the original, and would still produce closer online racing. It seems that I'm never going to get the opportunity to test it, let alone race it, which is a pity.

But it should be whatever the people that have to do the work decide it to be, I'm just surprised that the wishes of a few seem more important to the mod team than the expressed wishes of the overwhelming majority. Perhaps we should have another poll, rather than the year-old one- please include a third option for a reduced '66 aero effect!

[john roberts]

Originally Posted by Saiph

It's a shame that people feel the need to spark off new threads about old, contentious issues, simply to stir the pot. Can't you just use the search function to go back and read the many previous threads on these subjects, where all the points have been raised before? Then when you've done that, you can find something constructive to do.

well i would say adding the aero/tow to the 65 mod as a very "constructive" thing to do .

john

[Arturo Pereira]

As Rob and Doug said, let?s go for it. We already have the 67 cars to leave them as they are, and the father of all the mods, the 1965 F1, deserves to be updated up to the 66mod standards.

[nardin]

Originally Posted by Saiph

It's a shame that people feel the need to spark off new threads about old, contentious issues, simply to stir the pot. Can't you just use the search function to go back and read the many previous threads on these subjects, where all the points have been raised before? Then when you've done that, you can find something constructive to do.

I guess this was for me as thread opener.

As Rob said earlier, situation has changed since the last debate about updating the '65 mod : time has passed, several leagues regularly run the new '66 mod giving a chance to everyone to fully appreciate (or not !) the aero model.
I actually changed my mind about this, so I believe it's worth having a second look - which implies opening a new topic !

[codehound]

One little correction. The aero lift on the 66 mod is applied to both the nose and the rear of the car. In fact, a GREATER portion is applied to the back than to the nose. My impression was that the aero understeer was not popular with some of the testers and so ...

If a new 65 mod was done I would like to see two other things added to what was done in the 66 mod. In GPL the centrifugal effects on the tires are not considered. I would like to see the contact patch reduced as speed increases, which would reduce mechanical grip. I would also like to see the stiffness of the tires increase as speed increases. The effect would be that the cars would be driven more sideways at low speeds but have to be driven less aggressively at high speed, requiring a delicate touch while driving through high speed turns instead of throwing the cars into the turns as you can now do in GPL.

[Rodolfo]

I too vote for an update! It's my favorite mod and with more realistic aerodynamics it would be great.

Rolf

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally Posted by codehound

One little correction. The aero lift on the 66 mod is applied to both the nose and the rear of the car. In fact, a GREATER portion is applied to the back than to the nose. My impression was that the aero understeer was not popular with some of the testers and so ...

If a new 65 mod was done I would like to see two other things added to what was done in the 66 mod. In GPL the centrifugal effects on the tires are not considered. I would like to see the contact patch reduced as speed increases, which would reduce mechanical grip. I would also like to see the stiffness of the tires increase as speed increases. The effect would be that the cars would be driven more sideways at low speeds but have to be driven less aggressively at high speed, requiring a delicate touch while driving through high speed turns instead of throwing the cars into the turns as you can now do in GPL.

Very good points !!

[hankstar]

If my vote counts, I say yea Much as I love all the mods, the '65 cars (T77 in particular) are my favourites. I'd love to see them on a par, physics-wise, with the brilliantly-done 1966 cars.

It's very disappointing to still see such dogmatic (and frankly baffling) opposition to what can only be an improvement to this sim. Like do0g suggested, if it's GPLRanks people are concerned about, set up a new rank so people can continue with the original '65 physics if they choose to. If the opposition doesn't stem from fears of having lap times beaten or invalidated then I can only surmise that some people are simply afraid of change for no good reason (not that lap times are a good reason anyway, imho ).

[Ruud Dingemans]

Originally Posted by Border Reiver

Why waste extra effort changing the carset at all when there is an excellent one already for the 65 season that is ready to go and can be easily fixed with the addition of one file? What happens to the 65 mod and all the work and efforts of David Wright and team; that is just left to rot as some numbers stored in some list somewhere that no one cares about and that everyone has moved on from because it is better to drive notionally earlier cars since they are modeled more realistically? Why is David and his team not allowed to update his (and his team's) work

...Uh, Rob, since you replied to my post here: if you'd read it, you'd notice that I'm actually *in favour* of a total 65 update here, for reasons mentioned (see above and below).

That said though, I do think that going the way of a 64 Mod would give the 'cleanest' solution, since it'd be separate from 65. It's that simple.

And as a bonus, you'd gain another GPL season with relatively little work, and one where the cars were REALLY close together, even more than 65.

Originally Posted by hankstar

It's very disappointing to still see such dogmatic (and frankly baffling) opposition to what can only be an improvement to this sim. Like do0g suggested, if it's GPLRanks people are concerned about,

Like I said.

I would be one of the biggest opponents if it upset GPLRank, since hundreds of people have slaved away during months of hotlapping to set their times on this one.

But it's not GPLRank that would necessarily be the problem here, since with aerodynamic lift and other realism enhancements et cetera the 65 cars would become SLOWER overall (as they are, the 65 cars are a bit too fast compared to real life anyway).

You'd only have to designate the 65v2 cars as such - or not even at all. It'd be rare that a 65v1 time would be bettered with a 65v2 car. GPLRank65 would hardly if ever be affected.

Slipstream rules (no WR times set with them, no cheating using the AI for slipstreaming) would apply just as well as to the other ranks.
Also, the slipstream effect would be smaller in 65, with its smaller cars and lower speeds, compared to the current 66 draft. So, doesn't seem like an unsurmountable obstacle either.


To keep things simple, I'd still be in favour of doing it in the form of a 1964 Mod though. No new carset is needed, just some light modifications of the existing one, and the whole thing would always be clean as a whistle, Rankwise. No muss and very little fuss.

http://www.statsf1.com/default.asp?F...me.asp?an=1964

Regards, Rudy
(GPLRank: -36)

[AlanDavies]

I'm in favour of an update for the 65mod.
I'm in favour of an update for the 67 original.
I'm in favour of having a 64 mod.

I'm in favour of having the most realistic driving experience that can be acheived in GPL across all mods.

Well done the mod teams, beta testers and all involved